DURBAN South Africa AP Black liberation leaders operated a secret military command to supply vigilantes with weapons while they negotiated an end to white minority rule with the former apartheid government a Cabinet minister testified Tuesday. Public Works Minister Jeff Radebe 45 the first Cabinet member to apply for amnesty from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission described how he organized and armed African National Congress self-defense units. The units operated in KwaZulu-Natal Province from 1990 to 1994 as South Africa was emerging from decades of apartheid and undergoing a painful period of black-on-black violence. More than 5000 people died in clashes between the units and militants of the rival Zulu nationalist Inkatha Freedom Party. The Zulu militants were backed by the apartheid government according to a recent Truth Commission report. Radebe acknowledged that in the absence of a strict command structure many self-defense members turned to crime and continue to contribute to South Africa's spiralling murder and robbery rates. ``It cannot be denied that some of the comrades gravitated toward crime'' Radebe said in an interview. The hearing offered detailed insight into the ANC's role in the upheavals that preceded the first all-race elections in 1994 when Nelson Mandela became president. The ANC at the time was negotiating an end to white rule. Radebe was ANC chairman for Kwazulu-Natal region and also served as an underground commander of Umkhonto we Sizwe Spear of the Nation the ANC's armed wing. ``This place was in flames. Almost every Saturday I used to bury comrades'' Radebe told the panel. Orders to set up the structures came from Umkhonto commanders who included the head of the Communist Party the now-deceased Chris Hani and Ronnie Kasrils now Deputy Defense Minister Radebe said. After being trained and armed the ANC units reverted to control by local communities. The reason for avoiding a direct command structure was to keep Umkhonto's activities secret from the white minority government he said. Radebe said he did not welcome the role of setting up the units but felt violence would have taken a ``heavier toll'' without them. ``If you talk peace without the capacity to defend yourself it would be a hollow peace'' Radebe said in an interview. ``As the ANC we were involved in a multi-pronged strategy in solving problems.'' As the elections approached in 1994 Radebe said he was ordered to disarm the self-defense units and integrate them into military and police structures. But Radebe and two other applicants for amnesty on Tuesday could not answer repeated questions from the commission about how many arms were supplied to the units and how many were retrieved. In an interview Radebe said most of the cadres have joined the army and police forces but could not give any numbers. Radebe said he is seeking amnesty because he and his party regret excesses that occurred. ``I think as we are building a new democracy in South Africa our people ... need to know the truth and to open the old wounds of the terrible time from 1990 to 1994.'' pr/djw APW19981201.0358.txt.body.html APW19981201.0383.txt.body.html